Decent Espresso Maschinenbesprechung

@decent_espresso:

A propos flow rate measurements: Are you involved with the development of the BLE scales (Skale 2) that you sell with your espresso machines or do you buy them as they are made/sold from atomix? If you are involved on the technical side:

It would be nice to get a new firmware for these scales that transmits the flow rate (i.e. the weight change between measurements divided by the time between the measurements) in addition to the weight. I assume the scale internally has more than 0.1g resolution and only the scale knows the exact time between measurements. It should be able to calculate a fairly exact flow rate. Certainly better than any flow meter (last but not least because it's the flow rate of the espresso and not that of water at a pump).

If the flow rate is calculated on the other side of the Bluetooth connection (in the espresso machine), the result is less exact. The weight difference between two measurements is at the resolution limit (the protocol uses 0.1g resolution) and the Bluetooth timing is a bit unpredictable.

 

I am friends with Atomax, and they reply to my emails, but I have no involvement with their firmware. In fact, we are making our own Decent scale with our own firmware, so that we have control over the sorts of things. It's a big project that is taking a long time.

But I do have some information that will likely help you.

Two years ago, when I started working with Atomax, I asked them the exact question you're asking above. The answer they gave me is that the Skale is sending weight measurements at precisely 1/10th of a second increments of time. If the messages arrive at different timings because of Bluetooth delays, you should ignore the Bluetooth timings, and assume 1/10th the second intervals between measurements.

In my own code on the tablet app, I apply a smoothing algorithm, I believe it is 95% dampening per sample. As you noticed, flow rate is quite noisy if you calculate really on 1/10th of a second weight changes.

-john

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Ich bin mit Atomax befreundet, und sie antworten auf meine E-Mails, aber ich habe nichts mit ihrer Firmware zu tun. Tatsächlich machen wir unsere eigene Decent Scale mit unserer eigenen Firmware, so dass wir die Kontrolle über die verschiedensten Dinge haben. Es ist ein großes Projekt, das lange dauert.

Aber ich habe einige Informationen, die dir wahrscheinlich helfen werden.

Vor zwei Jahren, als ich anfing, mit Atomax zu arbeiten, stellte ich ihnen genau die Frage, die Sie oben stellen. Die Antwort, die sie mir gaben, ist, dass der Skale Gewichtsmessungen in genau 1/10 einer Sekunde Zeitschrittweite sendet. Wenn die Nachrichten aufgrund von Bluetooth-Verzögerungen zu unterschiedlichen Zeiten ankommen, sollten Sie die Bluetooth-Timings ignorieren und von 1/10 des zweiten Intervalls zwischen den Messungen ausgehen.

In meinem eigenen Code auf dem Tablet App, wende ich einen Glättungsalgorithmus an, ich glaube, es ist 95% Dämpfung pro Probe. Wie Sie bemerkt haben, ist die Durchflussmenge ziemlich laut, wenn Sie wirklich von 1/10 einer Sekunde Gewichtsänderung ausgehen.

-John

Übersetzt mit www.DeepL.com/Translator

 

Neues Softwareupdate: die Waage (Atomax Skale 2, Decent natürlich auch, aber ja noch nicht im Verkauf) wird nun automatisch ein- und ausgeschaltet (bzw. das Display, ganz aus geht nicht, da die Waage ja noch via Bluetooth ansprechbar sein muss), wenn man die DE1 aus dem Standby einschaltet. Sehr angenehm!
Da ich die Waage am Netz hängen hab, stört mich der höhere Stromverbrauch dadurch nicht (bei Akkubatteriebetrieb haben Nutzer schon berichtet, dass die NiMh-Akkus nicht mehr 1-2 Wochen sondern nur noch 2-3 Tage halten, wenn man vergisst sie auszuschalten, sind sie aber in 1 Tag leer), der Komfortgewinn ist für mich wichtiger.

 

Die kommende Decent-Waage hat eine schöne Form (2 Tassen), aber für die, die keine Decent benutzen, ist sie mit 37mm zu hoch geraten. Eine 15-16mm hohe Bluetooth-Waage mit offenem Protokoll wäre toll. Oder eine Waage, deren Höhe man verstellen kann. Wenn der obere Teil wie eine Schachtel über den unteren Teil gleitet, sollte das mit einer Distanzeinlage machbar sein. Außerdem würde ich mir eine harte Wiegefläche (Edelstahl) wünschen. Plastik verkratzt doch recht schnell irreversibel.

 

ich warte (bezahlt) seit jahren auf diese waage - und 37mm ist für mich tip-top

 

Das Warten müsste ja jetzt bald ein Ende haben...
Die Höhe resultiert u.a. von der Idee die Waage bei der DE unter der Abtropfschale zu haben. Dann spielt auch die Oberfläche keine große Rolle.

 

Hallo zusammen, durch verschiedene Posts bin ich auf die Decent Maschine aufmerksam geworden. Die Funktionen und die Optik gefallen mir sehr. Etwas überrascht bin ich, dass die Maschine anfangs wohl um die 1.000€ gekostet hat. Ich muss gestehen, ich habe nicht den kompletten Thread gelesen. Aber könnte mir jemand kurz erläutern, woher die enorme Preissteigerung kommt? Sind da so viele neue Funktionen/ Features zur Anfangsversion dazugekommen? Oder waren die 1.000€ zu optimistisch angesetzt?

Danke und Grüße
Philipp

 

Es lohnt sich, dazu alles durchzulesen. Die Maschine war deutlich einfacher geplant als sie realisiert wurde. Im Verlauf der Entwicklung hat sich herausgestellt, dass die 1.000 EUR bei dem Auswand und den Fähigkeiten weit unterhalb des angemessenen Preisniveaus sind. Das P/L-Verhältnis ist angesichts der Features nach wie vor exzellent.

 

Hallo Decent-Follower,

anbei der neueste Betrag von John aus dem coffeeforums.co.uk zur Neuerung in der V1.3 bzgl. Heizelement:
New Decent Heaters
About 18 months ago, I was contacted by Kawai and told that they are the world's largest thermocoil manufacturer, that they make models for a few big name pro espresso machines, and that they'd like to work with us to design a heater to our needs.

Our Decent Espresso Machines are "heat on demand", or boiler-less. However, our machines aren't "sitting around cool", but instead have 1.2 meters of stainless steel tubing, coiled tightly inside a block of aluminum, sitting at 110ºC (for espresso) and 160º (for steam). That's our stored energy.

We currently have two limits imposed on us, by the fact that our demands are beyond what anyone else is doing. The maximum power heaters we can get are 1350W, with 1.2 meters of coiling. This limits us in two ways:

1. our maximum flow rate for espresso is 8 ml/s. Pro machines are typically around 10 ml/s to as much as 12 ml/s. This matters mainly for espresso making styles that want to hammer the puck quickly with water.
2. our steam is about half as powerful as a pro machine, so you need about 40 seconds to steam milk that would take 20 seconds on a La Marzocco Strada.

For the past 14 months, Decent and Kawai engineers have been working on a new design for heaters. The main changes are:

• 2 meters if stainless steel tubing
• standard wattage of 1500W, with test models now in our hands, going up to 2200W
• 30% taller
• but the overall assembled size stays the same, because we've also designed molded insulation to fit efficiently around the heater
• each heater used to take us 90 minutes to hand build (top photos). We would build a case, add aerogel insulation, temperature probes and triple thermal safeties (two thermal fuses, one thermostat).
• Now each heater comes ready-to-use, with easier mounting as well.

We're now testing the 1500W models, as we plan on using them in production for our upcoming v1.3 models. That represents an 18% power boost over our previous heaters.

Through 2020, we'll be testing and refining our control software, with the goal of releasing higher powered steam and faster flow rates, in our 2021 espresso machine models. It's alas not so simple as just increasing the wattage. Heat transfer is a complicated affair.

What's interesting about this progress is that it was impossible to short-circuit this step, and launch 2 years ago with this. A company this size only co-designs products with a company it believes is worthwhile. We first had to prove ourselves.

-john

 

Hallo Decent-Follower,

anbei noch eine interessante Frage von einem Mitglied aus dem coffeeforums.co.uk mit der Antwort von John:

Will this only be available for v1.3? I was looking to purchase a DE1PRO when the new tablets started shipping, but it would suck to miss out on this upgrade. On the other hand, I don't really need the group head controls and would like to save that $300 if I can help it. What's the outlook for people in my shoes, and people who are worried about buying the machines but missing out on awesome upgrades that might land just a few months later?

The v1.3 machines coming in January will have the new heaters, but we do have v1.1 machines being built now that have a 1500W heaters in them, though they still use the old insulating case. We transitioned about 4 weeks ago. If you want a 1500W v1.1 machine, at the lower price, just let me know before you pay, and I'll make sure that's what you get.

As far as going to 2200W for steam, that'll be for our more expensive models only (DE1XL, and eventually, a DE1CAFE) and will start to appear in July 2020 (in the DE1XL) and 2021 (1st appearance of the DE1CAFE). The "home models" will peak at 1500W.

-john

 

Hallo Decent-Follower,

anbei ein Update von John zum Abtropfschalen-Gitter, dass er heute in coffeeforums.co.uk gepostet hat. Wie man sieht, ist er sehr bemüht hier eine gute Lösung zu finden:


After several attempts at a "lost-wax process" stainless steel drip tray, even with the cross bars, the result is too wonky to be acceptable.

Here's a photo (top) of the final attempt, compared to the current chrome-plated aluminum drip tray cover. Hopefully, you'll agree that our current cover is a lot nicer looking. It's main problems are (a) it's aluminum, and can tarnish and (b) the company that made them for us tried to hold us hostage.



So... we're giving up on "lost wax process" molding for this piece.

I will mention in passing that the supplier has been honorable throughout this time, and promised to refund our money if they couldn't succeed. That's a big loss of money for them, since the molds have been made, used, and aren't useable. We'll definitely do business with them in the future, for parts where lost wax molding is more suited (ie, parts that can be machines afterward, to remove the casting defects).

We decided to reach out to manufacturers of traditional drip tray covers, but to design something that looked less like a BBQ, and closer to our existing design.

We paid for 5 suppliers to send us samples. I've previously posted the *horrible* first sample we received. The rest of the 4 samples have taken more time to arrive, but the workmanship is much improved. All of them are a bit too large, and 2 of have a slight wobble to them. The ones on the bottom line are my favorites.



However, there are two manufacturers who are really close to acceptable, that we're going to follow up on.

I've included one photo below of the new design, on the DE1XL countersink. Except for it being a tad too large for the ceramic underneath it, I think it looks ok.

The price for these is much lower (around $5) and being made of stainless steel, they're very tough. They're heavier, so will cost more to mail to people. But overall, I'm pretty happy with how this is turning out, even if we've been sweating daily since August (!!!) about this part.

Thankfully, so many customers sent in their ugly-but-still-functional spare old drip tray covers in, that we've been able to continue shipping espresso machines, with the promise of a free gift and a much better drip tray soon to arrive.

I'm optimistic for a happy ending to this story.

-john

 

Hallo Decent-Follower,

John hat gerade folgenden Beitrag auf coffeeforums.co.uk gepustet. Es wird ab Dezember einen verbesserten Milchthermometer geben:

The story behind our digital milk thermometer

We're almost out of stock of our first run of 3000 digital milk thermometers.
I designed these 3 years ago, with my Portuguese designer Joao Tomaz, based on a meat thermometer ET578A - Digitales Braten-Thermometer - MINGLE Europe design that German thermometer maker "Mingle", already manufactured. Here's what their meat thermometer looks like:


To morph their thermometer into ours, we:
- changed the probe length
- changed the firmware to appropriate temperatures for steaming milk
- added a silicone sleeve for water-ingress-prevention
- changed the printing

But otherwise left the rest alone, since it was a well made product already.

I picked Mingle because they made my favorite oven thermometer (for roasting meats), and it was the only one that had survived my use.

However, steam ingress has been a persistent problem for us. Very heavy milk steaming (or washing up in a sink) gets water inside. The thermometer shorts out and doesn't work.

Luckily, the thermometer is not permanently broken when this happens. You have to twist to open it up, and let it dry overnight with the batteries removed, and it comes back to life. Still, that's inconvenient.

Home users rarely have this problem (not enough heavy use) but it's been a problem for us, when our thermometer is used in cafes.

Before re-ordering, I challenged Mingle to try to address this issue.

They suggested that the PCBs be "nano-coated" with a water resistant coating.

Yesterday they delivered 3 samples to us, and I asked my engineer Alex to run them through ever-more-punishing tests.

I didn't expect them to survive the total-immersion test, but they did. I'm pleased. Only $0.80 extra cost to us oer thermometer, and so much more useful.

We'll have these new models in stock, by the end of December.

The milk thermometer page is here: Decent Digital Milk Thermometer - if you want us to hold your order until the new ones come in, please say so in the "Notes" of your order.
-john

 

... leider hat auch John diese Info gepostet. Ich hätte die DE1pro auch gerne in weiss gehabt. Daraus wird zumindest vorerst nichts:

12 hours ago, Wascally314 said:
Do you have any plans to offer the DE1PRO in white? Thank you!

Sorry, no. Just the DE1XL will be in white.
- john -

 

@Espresso Junkie
Man könnte sich m.W. Füße, Cover und Tabletstand separat in weiss bestellen und dann eine DE1Pro entsprechend umbauen.

 

@embrya
Gute Idee, man könnte auch die Teile umlackieren bzw. folieren lassen. Das sollte auch nicht so teuer sein. Werde ich mir auf jeden Fall überlegen, falls ich mir die DE1pro zulege. Das einzige Problem ist dann nur noch das Tablet, das müsste man wahrscheinlich durch ein weisses iPad austauschen

 

Stimmt, haben schon manche gemacht. Im DE Forum gab es eine in grün, in pink und rostfarben...
;-)

 

Mein Milchthermometer steht im Trockenen!

 

@rebecmeer

Super Foto! Hattet ihr auch eine Maschine da? Falls ja, wie war euer Eindruck?

 

@Espresso Junkie

Wir haben keine Decente Machina!
Die Motore zu laut. Nix passen zu die Name.
Und die Latte will nicht geben schnelle Schaum!
Gutes Idea von die Konzepte Machen nix alleine gutes Machina!

Scusi John!

Bald ist der 11.11!

Ich habe schon mal geübt.

 

Hallo Decent-Followers,

John hat gerade folgenden Beitrag auf coffeeforums.co.uk gepostet. Ein paar interessante Infos zur v1.3 und zum IMS Duschsieb:


21 hours ago, Cyberclau said:
1) What will be the other differences, if any, between ordering a DE1+ v1.1 in two weeks (i.e .with the new tablet) and the 1500W heater (not the pre-built version) versus ordering a v1.3 (in January?)? Other differences than the pre-built heater and the new firmware (that will be available free to all as you said).

Answer from John:
The firmware update is compatible with all machines, going back to when we launched.

I was "out of the loop" and it turns out that since March 2019 (around machine serial #420) the factory switched to 1500W heaters, and most of the v1.3 machines will have these 1500W heaters with the slow-to-assemble fiberglass/aerogel box, and around June we'll switch to the new box around the heaters.

However, the firmware controlling the heaters is still assuming 1350W, as the new firmware to take advantage of the extra wattage is not yet out. That'll come out in January, to all machines, and will give the 1500W heater folks a bit of a boost.

The bigger difference between v1.1 and v1.3 is the new group head controller. New tablets will start to ship with v1.1 machines in about 10 days. We're QCing the new batch this saturday.

21 hours ago, Cyberclau said:
2) Any remaining issue with the IMS screen, provided with the DE1PRO, causing cratters? What is the current and future solution? Estimated time for a permanent fix / form of the fix?

Answer from John:
I don't agree that there are "problems" with the IMS screen.

I do agree that there's always room for improvement and it looks like a spacer, which two 3rd parties sell (at differing prices) improves repeatability and reduces channeling for many people. But, lots of people are very happy without the spacer. You're welcome to buy a spacer, or wait it out and see what the results of all this research is. People are still trying out different designs, and you can buy them for under £100 at any point, if you want to play with the latest stuff.

But, if you're nervous about the IMS screen and want to buy a DE1PRO, I'm happy to include the standard screen as well as the IMS, for free, and you can try both.



21 hours ago, Cyberclau said:
3) Is it planned in v1.3 firmware to add the option to interact/control/react in real time when pulling an espresso shot?

Yes, but only with the group head controller. Older machines won't have that feature, as bluetooth does not have enough bandwidth for us to do that in a quality way.

-john