Decent Espresso Maschinenbesprechung

Diskutiere Decent Espresso Maschinenbesprechung im Gewerbliche Angebote Forum im Bereich Ankauf, Verkauf, Tausch; [MEDIA] Jetzt erhältlich: Magnetischer Siebträgerständer für Weber Workshops Kaffeemühlen Für Weber Mühlen (Key, EG1, etc...) haben wir eine...

  1. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    07.11.2016
    Beiträge:
    752
    Zustimmungen:
    1.465


    Jetzt erhältlich: Magnetischer Siebträgerständer für Weber Workshops Kaffeemühlen

    Für Weber Mühlen (Key, EG1, etc...) haben wir eine kleine Serie von handmontierten Magneten für unsere Portafilterständer hergestellt. Diese werden an den versteckten Magneten in den aktuellen Weber Mühlenmodellen befestigt. Decent Siebträger-Halter


    Now available: Magnetic Portafilter Stand for Weber Workshops Coffee Grinders

    Made for Weber Grinders (Key, EG1, etc...) we've made a short run of hand fitted magnets to our portafilter stands. These attach to the hidden magnet in Weber's current model grinders. Decent portafilter stand
     
  2. Orang

    Orang Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    18.09.2017
    Beiträge:
    48
    Zustimmungen:
    59
    @decent_espresso Would it be possible to create a map with all commercial coffee shops that are using decent machines? I only know of blooming coffee in cologne, but maybe there are more places where people can check out the results from a decent machine.
     
  3. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    07.11.2016
    Beiträge:
    752
    Zustimmungen:
    1.465
    Traurigerweise, nein. Wenn jemand eine Espressomaschine bei uns kauft, können wir nicht wissen, ob es sich um eine Einzelperson oder ein Café handelt. Und wenn er ein Café ist, wissen wir nicht, ob er die Maschine von uns benutzt, um Kaffee für seine Kunden zu kochen.

    Wir erfahren vor allem dann von Cafés, die unsere Maschinen benutzen, wenn sie Fotos auf Instagram posten.

    Sadly, no. When someone buys an espresso machine from us, we have no way to know if they are individual or a cafe. And if they are a cafe, we don’t know that they’ll use their machine from us, to make coffee for customers.

    The main way we learn about cafes using our machines, is when they post photos to Instagram.
     
  4. Lancer

    Lancer Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    29.10.2020
    Beiträge:
    5.422
    Zustimmungen:
    7.440
    There would be an easy solution - at least "optional" - when ordering, just put in a dropdown menu "yes, this is a business transaction", "yes, this is a business transaction, and i'd like to be named in the "we are a business that uses decent" list. or simply, no, private transation.
    Or something like that. Or a variant, where the customer can even enter business name, address and website so it can be published by you.

    I see only advantages, that you can point out on a map where decent espresso machines are commercially used, and get new potential customers there to see these in action
     
    Orang gefällt das.
  5. Pflunz

    Pflunz Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    24.01.2017
    Beiträge:
    799
    Zustimmungen:
    1.253
    Eventuell kann man hier ein freiwilliges Feld beim Bestellprozess anlegen, bei dem ein Café-Besitzer die Adresse des Cafés angeben kann. Decent-Interessenten könnten dann in das Café gehen um sich die Maschine genauer anzusehen, die Café-Besitzer hätten mehr Kunden.

    edit: @Lancer war schneller :)
     
  6. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    07.11.2016
    Beiträge:
    752
    Zustimmungen:
    1.465
    Leider ist es so, dass die meisten Cafés, die den Decent kaufen, ihn für die Zubereitung von Kaffee für sich selbst, für die Rösterei oder für die Zubereitung von Pour-over verwenden, aber weiterhin ihre Maschinen mit Kessel für die Kunden nutzen.

    Ich glaube, das hat mehrere Gründe:
    1 - Viele Cafés sind im Bereich "Milchspezialitäten" tätig und müssen schnell und konstant eine große Menge Milch erhitzen. Das gehört nicht zu den Stärken der dezenten
    2 - Die meisten Cafés haben lokale Serviceverträge, die normalerweise einen monatlichen Besuch eines Technikers vorsehen. Decent bietet dies nicht an.
    3 - fast alle Cafés glauben nicht, dass die Verbesserung der Qualität ihrer Kaffeegetränke ihnen mehr Geschäft bringt. Das höre ich ständig, und es ist deprimierend, das zu hören.

    Trotzdem gibt es langsam *neue* Cafés, die mit Decent beginnen und bei denen die Qualität zum Markenkern gehört.

    Ich hoffe, dass wir in ein paar Jahren eine "Decent Cafe"-App auf dem Handy haben werden, die die Leute zu Cafés mit einem Decent schickt. Dann haben die Cafés einen guten Grund, uns Bescheid zu geben und ihre bereits gekauften Decent-Espressomaschinen für die Zubereitung von Kaffee für ihre Kunden zu nutzen.

    Aber ich will ehrlich zu dir sein: Das wird vielleicht nie passieren. Selbst Cafés mit großartigen Bohnen hier in London, die auf Qualität setzen (Prufrock und Gramos), sagen mir, dass die Decent-Maschine einen viel besseren Espresso macht als ihre Kesselmaschine, aber sie ziehen sie aus den oben genannten Gründen einfach nicht in Betracht.

    -john


    It's sadly the case that most cafes buying the Decent, use it to make coffee for themselves, or at the roastery, or to make pour-overs, but continue to use their boiler-based machines for customers.

    I believe this is for several reasons:
    1 - many cafes are in the "specialty milk" business and need to heat a lot of milk, quickly, constantly. This is not a strength of the Decent
    2 - most cafes have local service agreements, usually with a monthly visit from a technician. Decent does not provide this.
    3 - almost all cafes do not think that improving their coffee drink quality, will bring them more business. I hear this constantly, constantly, and it is depressing to hear.

    That being said, there slowly are appearing *new* cafes that start with Decent, and quality is part of their core brand.

    I’m hoping that in a few years, we will have a “decent cafe” mobile app, sending people to cafes with a Decent. That then will give cafes a good reason to let us know, and also to use their already-purchased Decent Espresso Machines to make coffee for their customers.

    But I want to be honest with you: this may never happen. Even cafes with great beans, here in London, who focus on quality (Prufrock, and Gramos) tell me that the Decent makes much better espresso than their boiler machine, yet they simply won’t consider it, for the reasons above.

    -john
     
  7. #2727 dergitarrist, 22.09.2022 um 12:55 Uhr
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 22.09.2022 um 13:06 Uhr
    dergitarrist

    dergitarrist Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    17.11.2008
    Beiträge:
    2.773
    Zustimmungen:
    2.295
    Hi John,

    as someone who owns both, a café and a decent, I think your list is far from accurate or complete, and I'm rather dismayed by the somewhat condescending tone of your post towards businesses like mine.

    So here are a few reasons I won't tear out our current machine (KvdW Spirit) and replace it with a bunch of decents any time soon:
    1. Steam: despite our black drinks percentage being much higher than any other shop in town, milk drinks are simply a rent-paying reality. And I am happy to serve them because they are a great gateway to specialty coffee. Almost all of us, including myself, got into this because of a great cappuccino or latte they were served somewhere some years ago, and you'll find this to be true among the decent community as well.
    2. Cost: This means a standalone steam wand is necessary. If we add up the cost for a Modbar Steam boiler and wand and 3 decents (+ possibly a spare one due to the lack of fast service and maintenance), this becomes by far the most expensive espresso setup on the market.
    3. Noise: We are in the hospitality business. A café's first and only job isn't to make coffee, it is to be a welcoming space. I don't want to imagine the sound of 3 decents crunching away in our tiny little shop, churning out hundreds of drinks a day, and I can't imagine putting baristas through 8-hour-shifts of listening to it cut through music and conversations. If you watch back your own ten-minute challenge videos, you can observe the sounds of your voices go up drastically as soon as you start pulling shots. Now imagine this for a whole day, knowing life could be so much easier for customers and staff alike with properly mounted and virtually silent rotary pumps.
    4. Speed: If you want to survive as a café, you can barely ever stop making coffee. Depending on profile and recipe, the decent pulls shots about 20-30% slower than commercial machines, mostly because of the heating stage before shots are actually running. This goes up when you start implementing blooming stages or other complexities, which would be necessary if we're serious about actually (arguably) improving dink quality over what high-end commercial machines can give us.
    5. Consistency: In my mind, the key precursor to quality is consistency – you can only improve something you can consistently reproduce. Introducing all of the complexity the decent offers poses challenges to consistently reproducing pours and establishing dial-in practices, and I'm not convinced it's worth the trade-off. It can be done, of course, but:
    6. Training (and the UI): The user interface and workflow are so different from any other machine that a lot of training would be necessary. This is one thing if you are a mostly owner-operated café or employ only full-time staff where a few training hours represent a small percentage of an employee's time on bar. But the reality of our sector is: We have a lot of students, part-timers and weekend warriors who are committed to brewing the best possible coffee, but only have so much time to dedicate to it. Many of them used to be baristas and now have an office job but miss the buzz... if they're trained on a La Marzocco, like most people are, I can leave them alone with our KvdW after working alongside them for an hour or two here or there. I wouldn't want to burden someone like that who works here once a week with how fast to repeatedly tap the screen to adjust the yield in 1g increments without making it jump by 10g suddenly, and how to then transfer that small change to the recipe for this week's coffee B they just created to 2 other machines while there's an impatient queue forming in front of them. It's just not conducive to a good café experience, neither for the barista nor the customer.
    7. Lack of proof of concept: When you open a coffee shop, you throw a lot of money into decisions that you hope will stick. Some decisions become very easy to make when you go talk to owners of comparable businesses or see machines or grinders perform well elsewhere, and deviating from those proven paths becomes a gamble. Now, every *good* and innovative business model will include some gambles like that, and we certainly threw our fair share of dice in the past 3 years, but gambling with the very core piece of equipment in your shop is a risk you have to be sure you're willing to take.
    8. Commitment: Since the countertop units are an obvious no for a commercial environment, you have to route cutouts into your counter to accommodate the decents. This is a great solution and looks nice enough, but it is also quite the commitment, both to the machines and to the bar layout and workflow. I can never move things around, I have to be really sure where I want the machines to be, how many I want, how far apart I want them to be, etc.
    9. Service & maintenance, availability of parts: If the machine(s) were to break down, it's not just the cost of fixing the machine, it's the cost and complications of the outage. I get that we could just put in another spare decent (is there a volume discount...?) while we fix the broken-down one or send it in, but that's just it: There's no one here who will swing by after closing and fix it. I'd have to ship the machine around the globe and cross my fingers nothing gets held up by customs while we're left without machine(s). I expect this would also be a lot more expensive than a local technician, further driving up the cost of running a café with decents.
    10. Build quality: From what I can see, the DE1 is reasonably well-built, but I'm just not confident enough it'd survive a busy commercial environment day after day. I'd be curious how many DE1s with >500.000 shots on their clocks are out there – but I can say our Spirit with at least somewhere around that still feels like new, and if it ever doesn't, I know which inexpensive parts to replace to make it look and feel like new again. It was built in 2014 and I have no doubts it'll still make great coffee in 2034.
    11. Longevity vs. innovation: The Spirit and other machines you'll see in cafés I'd argue *do*, in fact, care about and focus on the quality of their coffee (like Prufrock or mine), are built on the basis of proven concepts with small innovations in important places. The decent is an innovation in itself. Which, again, is great for certain applications. But it means that, if I follow this line of thinking and prioritise innovation and decide to run a café using the most innovative espresso machine despite all the concerns listed above, I'll likely have to get new, more innovative machinery in a time-frame that's too short to pay off the investment, and that cycle keeps going: I'll not only constantly install new software updates and buy new machines, but I'll likely also route new holes into new countertops, and keep re-training baristas, explaining how they have to change their workflow this week because of that new thing that makes our espresso .2% better – maybe, hopefully.
    In summary, I do wholeheartedly believe that the best possible drink quality is one of the keys to there being a queue outside my door every day. But I also know that being able to work through that queue in due time is one of the keys to being able to pay the rent for the space that door is on. I also don't believe our coffee would be consistently(!) better if we swapped out the Spirit for decents. And if it were, it wouldn't be by enough of a margin to accept all these trade-offs. And if I were wrong about all of this, and that further improvement in cup quality were bigger than I'd expect (or was able to achieve at home in 6 months with the decent), and did indeed bring us more business, I am not convinced we would be able to handle it reliably with the decents. And if I was wrong about that too and we were, I'm afraid it just wouldn't be an enjoyable experience for anyone involved. And most likely, the crunching diesel noise of the pumps alone would drive away more people than a 23,2% EY over our current 22,6% EY espresso would bring in. ;)

    Despite how this may read, I am a big fan of the decent and have recommended it to at least two people who have bought it since. But branding coffee shops with those concerns and priorities as "specialty milk businesses" and suggesting that they aren't constantly and tirelessly working on improving their drink quality just rubbed me the wrong way.

    The points listed above are all massive trade-offs, and after a good half year of owning and daily using a decent (with delight) at home, I'm still not convinced the payoff is worth it. I still regularly get served shots from my baristas that I struggle to match at home. And they pull them in a little over half a minute total without stopping their conversations with customers. And *that* is the business model of a viable café.

    Cheers,

    Markus
     
    Danix, Silas, tw2020 und 3 anderen gefällt das.
  8. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    07.11.2016
    Beiträge:
    752
    Zustimmungen:
    1.465
    Hallo Markus,

    nachdem ich deine Nachricht gelesen habe, bin ich mir nicht sicher, ob wir uns in irgendetwas uneinig sind.

    Als ich von "Milchspezialitätengeschäft" schrieb, wollte ich damit sagen, dass es für die meisten Cafés eine große Herausforderung ist, große Mengen Milch schnell und gleichmäßig zu erhitzen, und dass Decent darin nicht gut ist. Also ja, wir sind uns einig.

    Ich habe auch darauf hingewiesen, dass die Cafés einen Vor-Ort-Service erwarten, den wir nicht bieten. Auch hier stimmen wir zu.

    Die Modbar als Voraussetzung für die Nutzung von Decent zu erwähnen, finde ich nicht ganz fair. Du kannst 2 DE1XXL zum Preis von einer Modbar-Dampfeinheit kaufen. Ein Setup aus 3 DE1XXL ist sehr leistungsfähig. Auf der Mailänder Messe letztes Jahr haben wir mit 3 Maschinen in 3 Tagen eine halbe Tonne Milch gedämpft.

    Ausbildung: Ich stimme dir zu: Wenn viele deiner Mitarbeiter/innen nur für kurze Zeit bei dir arbeiten, ist die einfachste Maschine wahrscheinlich die beste.

    Was die Langlebigkeit/Innovation angeht, so wird das immer ein Problem sein, denn unser Unternehmen ist "nur" 7 Jahre alt, verglichen mit den alten und etablierten anderen Profiunternehmen. Wir werden nie "aufholen".

    Was die Qualität der Getränke angeht: Wenn du zu den wenigen Betrieben gehörst, denen es wirklich so wichtig ist, guten Kaffee zu machen, dass sie tatsächlich etwas dafür tun (und nicht nur darüber reden), dann lobe ich dich. Ihr seid selten.

    Wir sehen, dass sich dezente Produkte in kleinen Cafés durchsetzen, die von zwei Personen betrieben werden, von denen eine eine große Leidenschaft für Kaffee hat.

    Wie auch immer, es tut mir leid, wenn du beleidigt warst. Wenn ich deine Nachricht lese, stimme ich dir in fast allem zu, was du geschrieben hast.

    -john


    Hi Markus,

    After reading your message, I’m not sure we’re disagreeing about anything.

    When I wrote about “specialty milk business” my point was that for most cafes, heating huge quantities of milk quickly and consistently, is a big challenge for them, and one that Decent is not good at. So yeah, we agree.

    I also made the point that cafes expect onsite service, and we don’t provide that. Again, we agree.

    Mentioning the Modbar as required if you use Decent, I feel is not quite fair. You can buy 2 DE1XXL for the price of one modbar steam unit. A setup of 3 DE1XXL machines is very performant. At the Milan trade show last year, we steamed half a metric ton of milk, in 3 days, with 3 machines.

    Training: I would tend to agree with you, that if many of your staff are only working for you for a short duration, then the simplest machine possible is likely best.

    As far as longevity/innovation, this will always be a concern, since our company is ‘only’ 7 years old, compared to the old and established other pro companies. We’ll never “catch up”.

    As far as drink quality goes, if yours is one of the rare places that really cares about making great coffee so much that you actually take steps to make it happen (not just talk), then I aplaud you. You are rare.

    Where we do see Decents going in, are small cafes run by (typically) two people, where one of them is very passionate about coffee.

    Anyway, I’m sorry if you were offended. In reading your message, I agree on virtually everything you wrote.

    -john
     
    Silas und benitojuarez gefällt das.
  9. higgins

    higgins Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    12.08.2016
    Beiträge:
    3
    Zustimmungen:
    0
    Hi John,

    what about point 3 of Markus? Do you have any plans on using rotation pumps in the future? Or did you have plans and decided against for a good reason?

    Best regards,
    Joerg
     
  10. Pflunz

    Pflunz Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    24.01.2017
    Beiträge:
    799
    Zustimmungen:
    1.253
    It is not possible to (cheaply) modulate rotary pumps. Gear pumps could be possible and I think it might even be easier to calulate the current flow than with vibe pumps. I'd be surprised if John isn't already working on it in the background, since the "sound topic" is coming up frequently.
    Yes, they are more expensive, but I am sure a lot of people would prefer them and pay extra.
     
    dergitarrist, Silas, Phenyl und 2 anderen gefällt das.
  11. Silas

    Silas Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    07.10.2019
    Beiträge:
    2.463
    Zustimmungen:
    2.954
    John explained that from time to time. Using vibe pumps is a deliberate design decision. It’s not only price and flow calculation as stated by @Pflunz but also installation space. Remember, the DE1 needs two pumps to mix water in the manifold.
     
    dergitarrist, Krillseeka und shadACII gefällt das.
  12. dergitarrist

    dergitarrist Mitglied

    Dabei seit:
    17.11.2008
    Beiträge:
    2.773
    Zustimmungen:
    2.295
    Hi John,

    I appreciate your reply, and on a purely factual level, I don't think we disagree much either.

    I just felt your post read a little too much like "café owners know the decent makes better coffee, but they'll keep the good stuff to themselves and deliberately serve worse coffee than they could to their customers because they don't care about quality that much and only serve milk beverages anyways."

    As one of those café owners, this rubbed me the wrong way. And since you put it into a 3-point list, suggesting it's a somewhat comprehensive picture, I felt compelled to complete that list and set the record straight.

    By the way, I *did* think about opening my shop with decents at one point (and got a bunch of e-mails from Scott trying to convince me to as well). So, since, you started your list with "I believe this is for several reasons"... now you know.

    Either way, I appreciate the openness and transparency with which you communicate about/market the decent. I think it's a fantastic machine. For home. Or the lab. ;)
     
    Silas gefällt das.
Thema:

Decent Espresso Maschinenbesprechung

Die Seite wird geladen...

Decent Espresso Maschinenbesprechung - Ähnliche Themen

  1. [Verkaufe] Sammelbestellung Zubehör Decent Espresso

    Sammelbestellung Zubehör Decent Espresso: Hallo zusammen! Ich hatte diese Anfrage schon unter Kaufgesuche, schien aber die falsche Kategorie zu sein, sollte auch dies die falsche...
  2. [Erledigt] Sammelbestellung Zubehör Decent Espresso

    Sammelbestellung Zubehör Decent Espresso: Hallo zusammen! Da ich überlege ein paar Zubehörteile bei Decent zu bestellen, wollte ich in die Runde fragen, wer ggf. Interesse an einer...
  3. [Zubehör] Suche: Mitkäufer für Decent Espresso Siebträger Halter

    Suche: Mitkäufer für Decent Espresso Siebträger Halter: Hallo! Ich würde mir gerne den decent Espresso Siebträger Halter bestellen, aber ungern 15€ Versandkosten bezahlen. Wenn es Interessenten gibt,...
  4. [Erledigt] DECENT ESPRESSO DE1 Pro 1.42

    DECENT ESPRESSO DE1 Pro 1.42: Hallo liebe KN-Gemeinde, biete meine absolut neuwertige (Liefertatum 18.02.2022) Decent Espresso Maschine DE1 Pro 1.42 mit XL Lanze + 2. kleine...
  5. [Zubehör] Decent Espresso Siebe

    Decent Espresso Siebe: Hallo Leute, Ich suche Siebe (oder Sieb) von Decent Espresso! In den Größen 18g, 20g oder 22g. Würde mich riesig über Nachrichten freuen :)...