Decent Espresso Maschinenbesprechung

Vielleicht bin ich ja blind aber einige grundlegende Angaben finde ich nicht auf der Homepage:

- Material der Brühgruppe / Siebträger? DE / DE+
- existieren irgendwo Bilder der geöffneten Maschine?
-Wie genau ist der Thermoblock beschaffen? Größe / Material DE / DE+
- Welches Pumpenmodell ist verbaut.
Generell vermisse ich relevante Informationen auf der homepage abseits der Featureliste.

hm ok.

Seit wann sind das einander entgegengesetzte Parameter. Sie haben also Edelstahl durch Innovation ersetzt

Nachdem mich die Möglichkeiten der Bezugsbeeinflussung anfangs begeistert haben,schreckt mich der Besuch der homepage eher wieder ab.

 

Da habe ich auch meine Probleme. Gibt es irgendwo auch nur Angaben zu Größe und Gewicht? Der Wassertank ist aus Keramik, aber wie sieht es mit den Verbindungen der wasserführenden Teile aus?
Woraus besteht der Siebträger und die Brühgruppe. Welche Messsysteme werden eingesetzt, die im Effekt die Temperatur der Brühgruppe so genau ansteuern?
Vielleicht ist das Konzept ja genial, aber das denken manche von der Optik der I-Phonekamera auch.
Ein altes Leica-Objektiv macht aber immer noch bessere Bilder.

 

Ich denke, es würde helfen, die (berechtigten) Fragen auf englisch zu formulieren...

 

Gewicht gesamt 12kg . Einzige Materialangabe die ich außer Tank finden konnte war das Gehäuse aus Alu/Edelstahlmix.

 

Ah, danke. Sobald die Maschine auf dem Markt ist, wissen wir mehr. Zur Pumpe steht irgendwo, dass zwei Vibrationspumpen verbaut sind. Damit lässt sich dann kaltes und warmes Wasser zur Brühgruppe transportieren.

 

@cappur und @Francois1: Mir geht es genau so, aber Ihr seht ja wie schnell der.... äh wie heißt er eigentlich? Ich meine den Hersteller. Wie schnell er hier antwortet. Fragt das einfach auf Englisch, wie @eistee schon gesagt hat, und Ihr kriegt die Antworten.

 

Bei fakebook und YouTube ist reichlich Material, bis zur Inspiration durch ZPM. Ist ja noch ein Beta wie er (John Buckman) schreibt.

 

Er heißt John und ist einer der Founder


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk

 

Die de ist aus meiner Maschinensuche raus. Professionell aufgebaut ist die hp ja. Nur eben wie Werbung für eine Direktmarketingfirma. Sind auch Kleinigkeiten wie Dampflanze re., der innere Aufbau..etc die mich davon abbringen.

Die ingenieurstechnische Leistung sowas auf die Beine zu stellen finde ich nichtsdestotrotz beeindruckend und wünsche dem Projekt viel Erfolg.

@escape
Auslieferungsdatum ist 1. Mai. Das sind etwas über 3 Monate. So Beta wird das nicht mehr sein.

 

THE DE1+ measures the flow of water into the coffee puck. When making espresso, there is a choice of two modes: pressure priority, or flow priority.

Flow priority means the water flow rate is the goal, and the machine automatically adjusts the pumps to reach that goal.

For example, during pre-infusion, flow priority is in effect, because you tell the DE1+ that you want (for instance) 3.5ml/second of water, until the end of pre-infusion.

Pressure priority means the water flow is automatically adjusted to reach the goal of a certain pressure. For instance, after pre-infusion, it is typical to raise the pressure to 9 bars. The DE1+ would increase water flow to do this, but importantly, as the ground coffee puck compresses, the DE1+ will automatically decrease the water flow because less water is now needed to maintain pressure.

On the DE1+ you can define up to 6 steps in making your espresso. Each step can either be pressure or flow priority. Each step has a set of "exit conditions" that cause that step to finish, and the next step to happen.

You can exit a step for any these reasons:
1) flow slows down below a certain threshold
2) pressure goes above or below a certain threshold
3) a certain amount of water volume has been put into the coffee
4) a certain amount of time has passed.

Let give an example of this for pre-infusion. Here are ways in which pre-infusion comes to an end:

1) put water in at 3.5ml/second, and then exit when the coffee puck is no longer accepting water as fast, such as (say) less than 2ml/second. This will happen when the puck is saturated with water, and thus allows the DE1+ to automatically exit pre-infusion at the right point.

2) put water in at 3.5ml/second, and then exit when the pressure at the coffee puck is over 1 bar. This will happen when the puck is saturated with water, and thus allows the DE1+ to automatically exit pre-infusion at the right point.

3) a coffee puck will generally take about twice as much water as it weighs. So you could set pre-infusion to introduce water at (say) 4 ml/s, and if you are using 20g of ground coffee, choose put 40ml of water in and then exit pre-infusion.

4) Time expired. To emulate the jigleur of a professional machine (such as a La Marzocco), set pre-infusion flow between 4 ml/s and 4.5 ml/s, and exit pre-infusion between 3 and 6 seconds.

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EXPERIMENTING AND EMULATING LEVER MACHINES

It's my personal belief that flow is extremely important to the taste of espresso. During a shot, the DE1+ graphs the water flow rate, and also gives you an instant number. Generally, between 0.8ml/s and 2 ml/s produce the best results, with about 1.1ml being a good average.

Because about 20% of the material in a coffee puck erodes during the making of espresso, the flow rate will naturally speed up if pressure is kept constant. Pressure profiling machines (and lever machine baristi) decrease pressure as the espresso shot progresses, in order to limit the speed increase of water flow through the puck. This appears to help decrease the acidity of the shot, and allows for more coffee flavor to be extracted.

However, choosing the right pressure profile to control flow precisely is not easy. I currently program my DE1+ to go from 9 bar to 4 bar, over 28 seconds. This results in a slight water flow rate increase (from 1.3ml at the start to 1.7ml/sec at the end) with a bit of acidity which I find pleasing. Too little acidity, I find, makes for boring espresso. Too much acidity is hard to drink.

If you are setting the shot step in flow priority mode, you tell the DE1+ that you want "1.3ml/ml at the start, 1.7ml/sec at the end, to transition gradually between the two, and to take 28 seconds to do so". The DE1+ then automatically changes the pressure to accomplish this.

There might be some espresso machines that can do this, but I don't think there are many. I know of the Dalla Corte, and it is an impressive machine. If there are others that can do this, please let me know as I would like to learn how they display these abilities to the user.

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Currently, here in our R&D lab, the firmware on the DE1+ espresso machine does do flow priority mode, and we use this during preinfusion. However, I have not yet coded the user interface for making flow priority steps on the DE1+.

I will be coding this next month (I am the Android programmer here) and if people on this forum are interested, I am happy to post screen pictures and video of what I am doing.

I don't know of any other espresso machine that allows you to visually program flow, and so I have no well-designed models to follow. Thus, feedback will be very important!

 

Tobias, you are absolutely right to be concerned about this. We are a new company, our product innovates a great deal and may or may not be reliable. Even if it is reliable, mechanical things break with time. It is very reasonable to "wait and see" how things turn out with the early owners of Decent Espresso machines, and more importantly, how we (the company) handle the inevitable problems that will occur.

One of the great things about the Internet is that:
1) for consumers: if a company behaves badly, this will be known and the company will suffer in the marketplace
2) for the company: if the company behaves well, this will be known and the company will sell more products.

Thus, the Internet encourages and rewards companies that treat people well. Hopefully you will see the effect of this on us over the next few years.

 

Before we even started designing our espresso machines, I had my two engineers work for two weeks at two espresso repair companies in Seattle, in order to learn what breaks first, and which espresso machine models rarely broke.

We think that back flushing is a bad idea, because pressure is released using the same water pipe that is supposed to bring clean water into the coffee puck. If you open up an espresso machine group head, you will find that this tube is black with coffee oil from the back flushing. This oil spoils (in english the word is "goes rancid") and cannot be cleaned. It might be that this dirty water pipe does not contribute much to the taste of the water, but it is definitely not optimal to backflush through the same tube that clean water will later come through.

Because we designed our own group head from first principles, we put a separate "forward flush" pipe in. When we release pressure, we hold the pressure on the water pipe into the coffee puck, and release pressure out a dedicated pipe. That pipe, of course, will have coffee oil "going rancid" (spoiling) in it, but that's ok because that pipe is never used to make coffee.

Thus, we think that "forward flushing" is superior for making coffee.

There are some negative effects of this approach: a little bit of water stays in the feed tube when espresso stops, and so if you leave your cup under the group head for more than 30 seconds, you might get a few drips of water from the portafilter into your cup. Our pucks are also slightly more wet because of this, when you clean the portafilter.

However, because the highest coffee quality is always my goal, when making decisions between coffee quality and other issues, I choose the decision toward better coffee quality.

So, that is why we do not do back flushing, but forward flushing instead. It's a long answer!

 

Correct. 50ºC at first so that you don't have to wait to have your morning coffee, then as the machine is operating and has time, the water is heated to 70ºC to sterilize it.

Not a thermoblock, but a thermocoil. It is similar, but the difference is important.

A thermoblock is typically made from cast aluminum, and then (hopefully) coated with something like teflon for food safety (people don't like aluminum in their water). However, over time heat expansion and contraction and use will make that coating come off. Also, a thermoblock typically has one heating point, and the aluminum hopefully distributes that heat evenly across the entire block, but in reality the heat is unevenly distributed

A thermocoil is made by taking a meter long length of food grade stainless steel tubing, and bending it around a pipe into a coil shape. A long heating element is also shaped like a coil and wrapped around the entire length of the steel tube, so that heating is evenly distributed across the entire length. The two coils are then cast in alumimum so that heat is transfered between them. At no point does water touch anything but stainless steel.

This difference between thermoblocks and thermocoils is an important one, as we believe that thermocoils are far superior.

We have two thermocoils in the DE1, one for espresso brew, and one for steam.

A custom electric circuit first "rectifies" the AC current, so that it is now at 100hz to 120hz, then detects the "zero crossing" and then a custom computer in the DE1 is able to provide individual electric cycles to the vibe pumps and to control flow down to speeds as low as 0.3 ml/second. On Home Barista, one user in particular did not believe we could do this, because it is not easy, and so I posted photographs of the DE1 working at 1 bar and 2 bar, and slowing the flow rate. Our error level in achieving those low flow rates was about 20%. I can repost those photos here if there is interest in that proof.

 

Wussten Sie, dass unsere Website auf Deutsch verfügbar ist?
https://de.decentespresso.com/

Die Spezifikationen unserer Espressomaschine finden Sie hier auf Deutsch:
https://de.decentespresso.com/de1
https://de.decentespresso.com/de1plus
https://de.decentespresso.com/compare

Wenn Sie lieber in Deutschland Fragen stellen, ist das kein Problem. Eine Schweizerin namens Mirjam Sulger arbeitet für mich in technischer Unterstützung. Ich werde sie bitten, sich diesem Forum anzuschließen.

 

On your homepage it makes the impression that exactly that Teflon is your choice of coating for the dosing funnel and the milk jug... just saying.

 

Correct: we teflon coat our dosing funnel and the outside of our milk jugs. On the funnel, this helps prevent coffee from sticking as it pours into the portafilter. On the milk jug, it makes it easier to clean the milk jug (and I think it looks nice). Heat expansion is not an issue with a dosing funnel. Heat expansion does occur with the milk jugs, but the coating is only on the outside, not the inside, so you will never eat the teflon. The milk jugs are made from food grade 304 stainless steel, and that is what touches the milk.

On the DE1, all the internal tubing is solid teflon. These are not teflon coated tubes, they are solid teflon. This is a very expensive material, and a number of high end espresso machines also use this. Because it is solid and not a coating, it does not come off over time.

Advantages of teflon tubing inside an espresso machine: calcium deposits do not stick to it, it does not get wider under pressure, and it is very insulating (so it does not cool the espresso water).

 

@decent_espresso: Thanks very much for your explanations! You should definitely put more tech info on your website, too. Sounds like a very well thought-out device, given all the details ('forward-flushing' etc.).

 

Thank you for the fast response.

To all who wanna know more about the machine look here http://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/decent-espresso-spilling-beans-t41794.html

 

Those same videos are collected in a playlist here:
https://de.decentespresso.com/spilling_the_beans

Every video in this series has been subtitled in German and also in English.

Even if your English ability is excellent, the sound recording of the person speaking is not always fantastic, and the subtitles really help understanding.

 

Hi Chris,

Referring back to your comment some time ago about the GS/3 being too small in that render.

It's not that important a point, but I decided to check... and the GS/3 is in reality 36cm tall. In that render it is about 28cm. Whoops.

Thus, you are correct, and that render needs to be fixed. The GS/3 is about 22% bigger than shown in that render.

Unrelated: I have owned a GS/3 for many years and I love it. It was with my GS/3 that I finally started making competent espresso, after years of failures with other espresso machines. I am also friends with Bill Crossland, the lead engineer on the GS/3 project and he has advised my Decent Espresso project from the very beginning.