Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

First, next time I'll be around Salzburg Area, I'm more than happy to drop by and have a cup of joe's with you and I'm looking forward to find a revelation in taste.

Oh boy, what I started with this post

I'm defently not a home barista. I have a more commerical interesst in coffee, as it supplements my other products.

In general I love the Speciality Coffee Idea. Try new things, Improve quality, Question the status quo.
As I wrote in my first post, I still wonder why speciality coffee is promoted big times in the countries which in point of view have less a history of good coffee. So if what everything they do, is just upbring the quality in their markets to a level which exists here for many years? The recent improvements might Oliver Strand (an american) getting excited, but I'm cautious about it, cause I spend quite some time in the USA to know how their coffee tastes, to be honest so bad that I even bring instant coffee with me to survive.

We all have a taste recognition memory, my was build by the my mothers pour overs and cappuccinos and espresso in nothern italy. That might be the reason why I not cherish acidity.

Is Speciality Coffee "that" special?
If you compare a standard espresso (saquella) with a speciality espresso (local Roaster) you for sure find taste differences, and yes it tastes better. But if you look at the purchase price which is 253% more at the local roaster,
is the result in the cup 253% more ? Unfortunately not.
Same experience with Kona, Geisha brewed. Yes they are better, but so much?
Even with this in mind I still buy my coffee at local roasters, and prefer quality over quanitity.

Is Speciality Coffee Experience reproduceable?
Recently saw the 2012 Nordic Roaster Forum, where 4 Nordic Roaster roasted the same batch of kenyan coffee, and cupped it blind. When the results are revealed Tim Wendelboe said "Least favoured my own coffee". Might be the water, temp of the cups, who knows. Strange when in the Oslo enviroment Tims Roast is outstanding and in the enviroment in Denmark it wasn't that good anymore.

Same open question with certain flavors, like taste this coffee tastes like blueberries, but only in a very limited timespann of 4 days and than the dominant blueberry flavor disappears?
Alot of speciality roaster even don't help to make the experience reproduceable. Like "We like our coffee best brewed at 94 degrees with a 20 gramm dose and a 36 gramm extraction weight." Still I'm able to adjust beyond their recomendation, but wouldn't it be nice to at least have a starting point.

I don't have the answers yet, if anytime in the future.

Some other thoughts on your apprecitated answer.
I guess we all agree on the fact the flavours disappear as the coffee is roasted darker, and at a certain point all characteristics are gone. I think beans, roasting profile should always been specific selected for a brew method and / or end product. There is no one size fit all approach.
But at the very end it might be just my Lever Espressomashine which is reculant towards light roasts.


Dirk

who's still searching his personal revelation experience.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

dharbot: schön, dass ein anderer sagt, was ich meinte. als ich oben schrieb, barmischungen seien nachhaltig, meinte ich eben genau, dass ein high end Kaffee nicht unbedingt um den Faktor besser schmeckt um den er teurer ist. dann kommt da noch die Frage nach der alltagstauglichkeit. Kaffee ist nicht umsonst eine "commodity", er ist einfach grundbestandteil unseres täglichen Lebens. ich liebe zum Beispiel spezielles Bier, real ale etwa oder micro-breweries, will aber unter der Woche abends lieber ein schönes kaltes Augustiner. so ist es auch mit dem Kaffee. ich hatte auch schon sehr helle, super interessante Röstungen und hab auch mal eine Zeit lang selbst geröstet, War auch super interessant. aber wenn ich morgens mit halb geschlossenen Augen einen americano ziehe, dann will ich einfach nur kaffeegeschmack. und als solchen empfinde ich kulturell und g Gewohnheitsbedingt eben Röstaromen, Karamell, Schokolade, Holz, etc. und nicht florales oder zitronig.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

There's nothing to fight over; most coffees served are on the darker side. Specialty Coffee is just a pixel on this screen in comparison to the large corporations, and it is true what you guys say, the Market and the average Joe wants their coffee as it's always been; dark and reliable, kein säure. There are thousands of tons of brasilian lowland coffees, India and Sumatra can provide shiploads of bags 'aged' or 'monsooned' to remove any defects. West Africa and Vietnam offers robusta to carefully blend into any coffee to give boys with home barista machines crèma to be extatic about. And it's not expensive. If you really want to pay for the same stuff, then Indonesia offers still 'Kopi Luwak' from caged animals. In India they have successfully used elephants to produce the same excrement coffee. Other producers use Antilopes, Goats, Parrots, you name it.

'Coffee from assholes to assholes', as George Howell said.

I'm not saying darker roasts are bad, but I'd prefer the beans used for this to be good. Not mediocre, but good.
And myself, I do not want flavours added to the coffee, like the toasty flavours of burned coffee beans. But that's me. Roasting can be done with deep notes without adding woody flavours.

It's like taking an excellent bottle of wine and considering heating it up and adding spices to serve Glühwein. You wouldn't want to do that if the wine itself would taste unique on its own.

If you find light roasted coffees watery and thin, acid and green, then head into the fuller, darker coffees. Or adjust your brew parametres

Tim Wendelboe has my deep respect still today: he runs a small roastery, totally unimportant in the swing of big things. His espresso bar has two seats inside and does not make money. But he sources very good coffees, and he pushes borders constantly. Read his last book on Finca Tamara in Colombia: how a coffee farmer takes part of a project on how to improve qualities on growing coffee. Nothing new under the sun, but a good insight into all the work that goes into producing good coffee. Starbucks and Lavazza has no interest in what a small farmer does, but I do. Not because it is romantic and nice and 'fair', but because it is transparent and sustainable to give the good producers a face even on the coffee bag in Salzburg. I support that. Most people do not want to pay extra for coffee: - they'd want the roaster to guarantee that the poor farmer gets paid well. It makes the consumer feel good.

Ah well, I digress .

I can tell you; if you've ever tasted a ripe coffee cherry, smelled high coffee blossom and walked through a coffee farm... ...them flavours are in the green seed of that ripe cherry :: -the farmer can tell you how his processing will result in certain flavours.
That kind of coffee is awesome to serve your customers. No kidding.

Have a nice weekend

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

Agree, two sides of the same coin.

Wasn't that specific on Tim and his roast, more a general point of view. Maybe based on the local enviroment paramenters, there is nothing universial when it comes to speciality coffee as the local water has a huge impact on the result. Let me share with you another story, David Schomer went to an event in Denver, which is 1000m higher than Seatle and he wasn't able to make one single shot of espresso. He assumed that due to the hight level change the beans are more agresively release co2. I came to the conclusion that only a local roaster is able to provide special coffee as he took into consideration the local enviromental parameters like water, height of the location etc in the selection of the beans and result he's looking for.

Have a nice weekend

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

A typical case of struggling with the laws of physics...

At the height of Denver water should boil at about 95°C, give or take, even less in low pressure weather. Considering that the water at the group leaves a pressurized system, this should suffice to have mostly steam at the top of the coffee bed, when Schomer tried to brew with his famous 203.5F. Wouldn't be much of a difference, IMHO at 92 or 93°C.
Even a local roaster could only overcome such "obstacles" by roasting coffee which is ideally brewed at 88-90°C.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

Well, anyone who's traveled a little can state that the same coffee tastes very different in different places: I always have an Illy or Lavazza when I'm traveling -even a Starbucks to remind me what it's like. You've got to be kidding me if you haven't realized such banalities?

The World Barista Championship in Bogota 2011 had most of the 50+ competitors struggling severely with their espresso extractions. Why? Did the elevation at 2625 metres above sea level affect the pressure? Indeed it did. Just as when anytime you do a cupping, water isn't just water.
David Schomer is an old school barista, but I believe him when he says he had problems pulling shots in Denver coming from Seattle (isn't that 1600 metres in difference?). Of course it is just a matter of adjusting grinders and water temperature and softness, and one should be able to tune it in.

The safe way is using dummy proof blends like Starbucks.

Now I'm curious on what good coffees you would recommend

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

So how doies he make a living? In a business where everybody worries about fairness towards the producers and small scale merchants of coffee, shouldn't the guy who takes the trouble to taste and source and roast let alone brew the product be able to make a living from that?
I for one wouldn't want to open a café that doesn't make money.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

Perhaps he can earn with the roastery and coffee trainng centre - it seems to me that he looks at coffee in its entirety, the espesso bar is only a little part.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

(I have to say Kaffee-Netz surprises me in negativeness; like a dark back street in the coffee world where all the decaf drinkers have gathered)

Please apologize for writing about Tim in such a way without explaining the whole picture.That his Espresso Bar does not make money is of course not interesting in the picture, because his Roastery does, as well as his Nordic Approach green coffee sourcing business. TW also does roasting and barista classes. I mentioned Tim as he was used as an example of someone who thinks he is something, "but how can he be that if his coffee was ruined in Nordic Roasting by the quality of the water" -kind-of-slashing. (yes, those 3rd wave posers can't be good).

It all is summed up in your own signature, where you indicate your own coffee devices cannot be mentioned 'here'. Nonesense. It's not about the brew equipment, but about good parametres and good beans. But don't claim cheap brands of coffee is just as good as anything else. I get that all the time: people want to shove the big italian espresso brands in my face because it was their first love or something. Mediocre coffee belongs in train stations and back street corners. Belgian chocolate is better than turkish chocolate, swiss milk is better than chech milk. Highland arabicas from a good roaster is better than anything with the name caffè from italian big brands.

Use an old french press or an old siebträger, but use good coffee. Or. else, why would you debate on KN?

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

okay. i get that. nevertheless, the guys he counsels and trains will want to make money from coffee. not everybody will be able to live from roasting small batches and training bariste. so again, as with wine or kobe beef or whatever the haute vollee loses touch with the masses and serves a product for a.small elite. coffee -in my opinion- doesn't deserve that. its' a drink enjoyed by some 80 per cents of our population, so it's a more proletarian drink than wine and that's part of it's charme. i think it's important to keep coffee real and not let it get overly sophisticated. it's.an everyday drink for everybody., not a luxury item.


sorry for the mistakes-mobile post

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

You ignore how various the coffee can be.
If you want the "typical coffee" that 80% of the coffee drinkers prefer, buy a bag of Melitta or Tchibo.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

The fact alone that Tim mentioned it shows his great personality. And i only raised it as one example of reproduceable experience question.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

@ domimü: If I wanted Tchibo or Melitta, I wouldn't be here, would I?
I think that slowly raising consciousness for better coffee, better supply-chains, fairer labour and trade etc. is great and necessary. But that can also be achieved while serving a cup of coffee that the average drinker will still enjoy. A good roast from carefully sourced "upper quality" beans can be a better way to serve the goal of "better coffee for all" than the constant strive for the lofty and elusive best of bests that normal customers won't enjoy as much and won't want to pay for.
That's all meant as a response to the business concept of a café that doesn't make much money.
For home enthusiasts it makes every sense to strive for the best of the best - but then it's a hobby, not a line of work.

I've worked as a Barista for some years, I've been lucky enough to work for people striving for quality and perfection. But still those people wanted to sell a cup of coffee that was tasty for everyone and that made normal people aware of better coffee than Tchibo et alii. And - always important - that paid the bills and left a margin. Now if I wanted to work for better coffee, both in the sense of higher quality and in the sense of fair trade etc. I'd go the same way and serve better "classic" coffee instead of trying to convert customers to lemon and citrus notes in light roasts.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

Just a few last words on Tim Wendelboe, labelled as someone who "... constant strive for the lofty and elusive best of bests that normal customers won't enjoy as much and won't want to pay for...".
Ever heard about the Nordic Barista Cup or Nordic Roaster? Coffee enthusiasts from Scandinavia, northern Europe and even Asia and the US gather in hundreds for lectures, workshops and cuppings to learn and share. The highlight is of course the cupping results, where the 200-300 attending are voting on the blind cuppings of coffees from around ten different roasteries (mostly Northern Europe, Czech Republic participates and even Taiwan who won last year!). Baristi from Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland -countries who are more known for their coffee culture than let's say Austria and Germany- even combat with national barista teams in fun tasks. My point was, these blind cuppings -executed by 200-300 coffee enthusiasts- have voted Tim Wendelboes coffee the winner year after year -and if not 1st place, then 2nd or 3rd.

Whenever we have his coffees in our store in Salzburg -where his roastery is unknown- people are praising the beans, and I serve his espresso with no worries. Why he's in the focus of dislike I do not grasp, but perhaps because he's doing something really well...

But back to the continuing discussion on Light Roast versus Dark Roast: I still claim it is not about the roast, but about the beans. Some coffees can take a lighter treatment, and in these cases the result can be simply awesome. Other coffees -simply most other coffees- can not take that, and only taste sour and green. Unexperienced roasters mess this up, having a go at average coffees with disastrous result.
So, let's just let the very few coffee snobs play around with over expensive beans with green flavours; it's clear here on KN that this is considered a blind path in the coffee universe.

The simple black allround coffee is the hero.

Can I then get recommendations for any good coffees?

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

Hallo,

wieder auf Deutsch. Deinen Beitrag kann ich komplett unterschreiben.
Wie wäre es denn mit einem Vergleich der genannten mit einigen hiesigen Röstern.
Beispielsweise Armin Machhörndl oder Johannes Bayer haben es doch auch ganz gut drauf.
Phoenix, Backyard etc. es gäbe schon einige Helle Röster (im doppelten Sinn).

Viele Grüße,
Walter_68

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

@Kaffee-Alchemie,

saw all the NBC and NRF Stuff on Youtube, and wow they know how to roll. And if I compare that towards the german kaffee campus online dokumentation, I was again so anoyed, I assume we are lightyears behind. I really like the nordic professionalism. The scandinavians still have the advantage that their languages aren't spoken widley and all the movies are subtitled, which gives them better access to english and this is one of the most disadvantges of the german language. If you do something like this in germany, the language would be german, and therefore it doesn't get that global reach. Anyway, there is lot of room for improvement. I as well like Colins Tamper Tantum not that professional, but still so interessting to watch.

 

AW: Helle Röstung vs. dunkle Röstung

To achieve the most global coverage with a single language, Chinese should be chosen :mrgreen: