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Neue Decent Mühle ein Mix aus verschiedenen Mühlen?

Dieses Thema im Forum "Mühlen" wurde erstellt von Lenin, 9. Januar 2017.

  1. infusione

    infusione Mitglied

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    Vielleicht sehen sie mehr.

    Sonst gibt es meist Druckkurven vorm Gicleur oder vorm Ventil des Scace device. Vibra mit Neigung zu Channeling ist ja kein unbekanntes Thema.

    Aber ich geb dir recht: Die wesentliche Info fehlt.

    getapatalked
     
  2. yoshi005

    yoshi005 Mitglied

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    Ich glaube nicht, dass das alles "Marketinggeschwurbel" ist. Wenn man die Beiträge auf home-barista verfolgt, sieht man, dass John sehr viele Kurven seiner Bezüge veröffentlicht und sehr vorsichtig interpretiert. Mit der DE kann man halt Druckveränderungskurven sehr feinfühlig und beim realen Bezug nachvollziehen. So werden leichte Druckschwankungen (minimales Channeling) im Puck sichtbar, die beim normalen Bezug nicht auffallen würden.

    Es ist ja auch nicht so, dass John seine Mühle über die Maßen lobt. Vielmehr schreibt er, dass nach seinen Beobachtungen das Mahlgut der Mythos One und der EK43 die besten Shots erzeugt.
     
  3. Aeropress

    Aeropress Mitglied

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    Ich denke seine Wortmeldung hier hat doch alles klar gestellt und relativiert und finde ich super, das er das macht in einem ausländischen Forum von dem er sich nicht unbedingt großartig Kundschaft erwarten kann, aber sich trotzdem die Zeit nimmt. Was ja für sich schon einiges aussagt und sympathisch ist. Er wollte seinen Kunden halt ne zweckmäßige auf Privatuser abgestimmte Mühle anbieten ähnlich wie Baratza das mit der Sette vorhat. Er ist kein großes Unternehmen mit Forschungsabteilung und hat sich dafür halt ne einfachere "Bastellösung" ausgedacht. Die scheint ja zu funktionieren und der Preis ist ja auch ok und eher moderat und sieht nicht nach Raffgier aus, ganz im Gegenteil. Insofern gibts an den günstigen Grundkomponenten auch nicht wirklich viel zu kritisieren. Ob man sich das Ding nun deshalb anschaffen muss in der vorliegenden Form ist ne andere Frage ;), aber zu kritisieren gibts daran nicht mehr viel. Die Sachen die aufgefallen waren hat er ja korrigiert, präzisiert und erklärt, sehr schön und vielen Dank dafür.
     
    Zuletzt bearbeitet: 12. Januar 2017
    Lenin gefällt das.
  4. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

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    There was a question earlier about how I'm looking at grinders by using our espresso machine.

    If you're interested, here is a short video where I explain a shot. I think the grinder here was a Mahlkonig K30.

    At about 20 seconds into the video, you can see the end of preinfusion, a rise in pressure (measured at the puck), and the flow rate that goes along with it.

    It is absolutely true that one sensor can have noise and that when you look at one line, a slight variation may not be meaningful. However, when the flow meter and the pressure gauge both show a variation during the same second (drop in pressure is accompanied by rise in flow rate) then it's very likely that the data is meaningful.

    In this video, I would say that the K30 is an acceptable grinder, but not amazing. If I had a video of a Mythos or Peak, you would see an almost perfectly smooth curve, which is rare, especially in the first 5 seconds as pressure rises: that's what I typically see channels open up and collapse.

    I'm also interested at looking at the rate of erosion, though this is complicated to evaluate in this video because I'm using a pressure profile that is decreasing pressure to compensate for erosion.

    There are lots of new things to see with our espresso machine, and I really don't yet know how to correlate what we see with the quality of the drink in the cup, much less the quality of the grinder. I think it will take several years and serious research to better understand this, but I hope that our espresso machine's visualization can help in that effort.

     
    infusione gefällt das.
  5. schraubohne

    schraubohne Mitglied

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    den ansatz finde ich gelungen, da sucht jemand nach weiteren zusammenhängen für einen guten espresso.
    pressureprofiling-maschinen und federhebler begegnen dem ansteigenden flow mit abfallendem druck zum ende des shots.
    der schliff der scheiben stellt die die partikelverteilung her.
    folgere ich richtig, daß seine scheiben dann maßangefertigt sind?
    an anderer stelle, ich glaube im oben verlinkten hb-thread, wird eine schraubenlose verbindung der scheiben angestrebt, was auch eine schlüssige weiterentwicklung wäre.

    ist das so? ich denke die bleiben im puck, sonst hätte man ja rückstände in der tasse.
    was matschig schmeckt sind die überextrahierten fines, wenn deren verhältnis zu den gröberen anteilen zu groß ist. meiner meinung nach, ich lerne aber gerne dazu.

    aber vielleicht ist das in einer eigenen diskussion besser aufgehoben bzw in schon vorhandenen.

    @decent_espresso, i´ll send a translated pn from which you may cite here if necessary
    ps. did you compare with a mythos one or a regular mythos? my personal interest:)
     
  6. TobiasM

    TobiasM Mitglied

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  7. decent_espresso ist übrigens niemand anderes als John Buckman, der CEO von Decent Espresso. Ich denke schon, dass er weiß, wovon er spricht.
     
  8. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

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    You wrote: "pressureprofiling-machines and levers meet the increasing flow with decreasing pressure at the end of the shot."

    I agree! In my opinion decreasing pressure makes for better tasting drinks.

    My point is something else: different grinders appear to produce different rates of erosion, regardless of the pressure profile.

    Imagine this simple test: a 9 bar shot of 18g of coffee grounds, and set the grinder such that the first 5 seconds after preinfusion, espresso is flowing out at 1.3 ml/second. In the last 5 seconds of this 30 second shot, how fast is the espresso now flowing? My experience is that different grinders give different flow rate curves under constant pressure. Some speed up to only 1.6 ml/s, while others end at 2.5 ml/s. I can observe this over and over, and so this data informs part of my opinion about a grinder.

    This acceleration in flow rate might be because:
    1) fines going into the cup, or it might be
    2) the grounds rearranging themselves inside the puck, or it might be
    3) that the particle size distribution has something to do with it.

    This is a very complicated topic, and very hard to analyze. I do not have the answers.

    ---

    As to your question about the burrs in our grinder, I believe the burrs are standard burrs bought from Italmill, that's what Hey Cafe told me. I can tell you that the motor is directly connected to the burrs: there are no gears.

    You wrote: "what tastes "muddy" are the overextracted fines, if their proportion is too big in comparison to the bigger elements such as boulders or between. imho, but i´d be glad improve my knowlegde."

    We are probably just arguing about terms as I would describe "overextracted fines" as simply "tasting over-extracted" and not use any other words.

    When I write "muddy" I literally mean "thick, like there is a fine dirt in it". I believe this is because fine coffee particles are in the cup, and at the end of drinking an Americano, I can see some particles at the bottom of my cup. A little bit of these particles is nice, it gives what English speakers call "mouth-feel" and is like a little bit of melted chocolate texture.

    As to your last question about the Mythos, I have to admit that I don't have an opinion as I didn't even know there were two models. :-( I just know that café owners say "I have a Mythos" and it looks like one and it makes great coffee. What model they have, I don't know.
     
  9. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

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    Indeed - the idea of weighing grounds is an obvious one and discussed widely on many forums.

    What I'm working toward is a bluetooth version of this idea, where an Android/iPhone device automatically turns off the grinder when the right weight is reached.

    This Brazilian software engineer made a video of this idea:


    He was much farther along with it than I was, and so I hired him. To make this work, though, takes some engineering, and we're almost there.

    -john
     
    clickclack gefällt das.
  10. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

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    Very cool. Haroldo's first prototype was also Arduino based. With a bit of digging, I found bluetooth controlled power plugs and solenoids, and so we went down that path.

    Here is Haroldo demonstrating his invention (at this point he's working for me) on 3 different Mazzer grinders.
     
  11. schraubohne

    schraubohne Mitglied

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    das sehe ich auch so, er stellt sogar noch gute fragen und sucht nach antworten

    neither do i have answers but tend to put point 1 aside, as we are extracting and get an emulsion.
    imagine a too fine ground puck, the pump working hard to produce some single drops. there´s no residue to be found in the cup.
    particles passing through the basket might be too fine to measure with non-scientific-hardware sieves.

    i´d like to add a point for consideration, even after the fines might have rearranged or went into the cup
    4) increased volume of puck particles through water contact leaves more space to pass ?

    agreed, this is more precise

    to me, less water, more oils insinde the ristretto emulsion might be the answer

    the americano with coarser ground and an increased flow rate has less fines that are able to filter / hold back the particles. or your basket is worn out:)

    is the knob for dialing in freely accessible or hidden? the latter would be the regular models mythos or mythos plus, both at 1400 rpm. the ns mythos one has 400?rpm

    as you seem to be fairly able follow our discussion i´ll spare my translation:)
     
  12. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

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    I forgot to mention that, and I think you're right: the oil emulsion of an espresso, and the proportion of water are likely the most important factors in creating a thick mouthfeel.

    When I make an Americano I make a normal espresso shot, and then add water. My grind doesn't change.

    However, I'm not sure that you're right about a faster flow rate and coarser grind causing less fines in the cup. Fines appear to be created accidentally by a grinder, even more so as the grinder heats up (colder beans apparently produce fewer fines) and if your grind is a mix of boulders and fines, the bigger the boulders are, and the faster the flow rate, in theory the easier fines could be dragged out of the puck into the coffee cup.

    I write "in theory" because unless we take refractometer readings with real experiments, neither your or me know actually what is actually going on in the cup. We are making theories that need to be tested.

    Yes, I use google chrome with built in translation. Ich kann auch ein bisschen Deutsch lesen.
     
  13. schraubohne

    schraubohne Mitglied

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    the proper way to do it, why appear the particles in the cup? i'lll try some americanos the next days, as the phenomenon is not wholly new to me. perhaps the water, so to say, washes them off the more sticky oils. this would support your theory of solids migrating into the drink.

    i didn't know that. in a way this points back to the mythos one grinder, having its grindchamber constantly held at 32? degrees C. the other major difference to the regular mythos models.
    have you shareable knowlegde of fines in, let's say on one end, refridgerated beans compared to room temperature and overheated at maybe 50 C?

    and i don't claim for being right, am only offering some thoughts we need further discussion about.

    i completely agree,
    my next one in german then, i thought it appropriate greeting you in a kind of english. welcome to kaffee-netz, decent_espresso:)
     
  14. decent_espresso

    decent_espresso Mitglied

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    Regarding colder beans causing less fines, here is an article in the New York Times about the recent study
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/science/coffee-freeze-beans-grind.html

    But a much more serious article is here:
    https://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2015/10/11/catch-up/

    search for: "One of the topics that was explored in a previous blog here and has been expanded on by others is the impact that the temperature of the bean has on the particle distribution of the ground coffee when the burr setting remains constant. "

    I was talking to Matt Perger a few days ago (one of the co-authors of the paper mentioned in the link above) and he feels that the science is very clear that colder beans yields fewer fines. I haven't reviewed the evidence for myself, but I have a huge respect for Perger, and will assume he wouldn't say such a thing if it weren't likely to be true.
     
    Lenin und schraubohne gefällt das.

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